Lance vs USADA/UCI/FDA/etc. vs Cycling

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- September 5, 2012 at 5:21 pm
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willywill
Guest

I would like to hear what we think about the recent decisions and open the floor for deliberation about how we would have liked to see this handled and what the real issues are.

My thoughts:

I was utterly dissappointed by USADA’s declaration of guilt based on circumstantial evidence, heresay, and Lance’s decision not to persue the case to arbirtration. I never really believed Lance was not a doper, to me it was pretty obvious that he was. It is kind of like the excuse I used in college that just because I went to parties where people smoked pot, hung around with people who smoked pot, read articles about growing pot, and kept a giant water bong in my room, in no way meant that I was actually a pot smoker (former I might add, by choice, not because I think there is anything wrong with it), I mean come on, give me a freaking break bro.

The way the case was handled was atrocious, but so was Contador’s case. It is curious to say the least that 50 picograms of clenbuterol can be detected in urine (that is 0.00000000005 grams) but it takes almost 2 years to issue punishment. Frank Schelck received proper treatment at this year’s tour, you failed your out…how hard was that?

Another point I am considering is why ban drugs in the first place? Controlling drug use with laws has not been very successful (IMO) in society so why would it be more successuful in sports? The only logical reason I can think of is to pay respect to those atheltes who competed before the advent of many of these drugs. But that is somewhat illogical in itself too, we don’t restrict technology as it applies to advancing business or academic interests. Perhaps we should all read by candle light so as to be fair to all Abe Lincoln contributed too…

If drugs can be administered safely and fairly and help athleltes perform better and reduce injury, why not do it? Avoiding danger seems obvious, as does education to the youth that just because a little is good doesn’t mean a lot is better. Ibuprofen releives swelling, why is that not a performance enhancer but coritsone is?

Ultimately I know that politics dictates the answers to all the above questions and the decisions that are made, but I want to hear what you all think personally.

Though I would have loved Lance to be a clean racer, the good that he has done for cycling, cancer patients, and humanity as a whole FAR outweighs what Travis Tygart has contributed to society, and for that reason alone I will still side with Lance (despite the fact that if I ever met the guy I would probably think he was an egotistical douche bag! 😆 )

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- September 5, 2012 at 8:27 pm
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vpc66
Member

He will always be the winner to me. All they have is hearsay no real proof and even if he did,come on years down the road…give me a break. And if he was you can not tell me that others around him were clean…Skills help also. Who would they give it to anyway…have they check samples from all the guys that came in behind him. All the fuss over this has made a mess of the Road Bicycle world…it could end up taking fans away.
- September 6, 2012 at 3:33 am
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neo_pop_71
Member

It’s 8:33 pm (PST)…

I will ponder this on my green happiness contraption (track bike)…

I’m heading east and that’s all the planning I need…

(oh yeah, gotta have the iPod shuffle that’s loaded with punk music!)

*** over & out ***
- September 6, 2012 at 2:40 pm
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willywill
Guest

Damn Neo, 8:33pm and heading out for a ride! Good on ya mate!

I have been trying to convince the group I ride with (road) to keep the same schedule through the winter and just add lights! Not sure it will happen though…

Riding a double century this weekend for MS, will let you all know how it goes.

Rode the Blue Ridge Brutal in Ashe Co. NC a couple weeks ago, 101 miles, over 9,000 feet in climbing, two Cat. 3 climbs, and something like 14 Cat 5 climbs, in 5 hrs 20 min ~ 19 mph avg speed.

Hoping to improve on this time at my next mountain century the Bridge 2 Bridge Incredible Challenge, never done this one before but apparently the final climb up Grandfather Mountain is a beast!
- September 18, 2012 at 2:11 pm
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ctk
Member

Lance was a doper but so was everyone else. Doesnt stop him being an incredible sportsman.
Drugs in sport should not be legalised it would lead to some very unhealthy athletes and probably deaths.
- September 18, 2012 at 3:09 pm
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neo_pop_71
Member

This months Bicycling Magazine covers this issue, it’s written by a long-time Lance supported who now feels that there is no question that he doped. He brings up one god point to me, strip him of his Tour wins, and give the trophy to the second place finisher. The only problem is most of the runner ups are also caught and convicted dopers themselves. Now what? If he doped and the testing methods were not advanced enough for their time to catch him… which in over100+ test Lance came back clean everytime… I say let things stand. To strip him only opens the barrel of monkeys and when the most concrete evidence against him is “he said, she said”, I feel it would simply be wrong. Asking the accused to prove his innocence is ass backwards and pathetic. He did prove his innocence everytime he passed the drug panel… clean. Done in my mind.
- September 18, 2012 at 4:21 pm
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vpc66
Member

Even if they were not advanced enough back then as far as I know they still have blood samples…test again and I bet they get the same outcome..They just have wood to take his title away…
- September 19, 2012 at 2:19 pm
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Mark
Keymaster

This is a great thread and I enjoyed reading each post. Lots of food for thought on this one.

I was never a big Lance Armstrong fan, but I did respect him and his training methods. Reminded me of watching Rocky IV, and you go back and forth watching the Russian (Ivan Drago) training with all the most high-tech equipment and then Rocky walking in waist deep snow with half a tree on his shoulders.

At the time, I simply thought Lance was utilizing every means available to him in order to become the best athlete he could be. Now that it appears as though he was doping, it doesn’t really change that view. He’s still a guy who used all means available to dominate his sport.

I don’t agree with stripping him of medals, because I think the tarnished image is enough. I mean, we don’t look at Jose Conseco and Mark McGuire the same way we regard Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth, right? To me, that’s punishment enough.

In the fitness world, there are competitions which everyone knows the athletes are doping, and then there are “clean” federations, where it’s just mother nature and a good training regimen. I don’t see why we can’t have something similar going on in the sports world. For those who want to dope, fine. But you’re going up against known dopers too. Good luck!

My 2 cents.
- September 20, 2012 at 2:09 pm
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ctk
Member

I’ve just been looking at the Tour podium finishers.

If Lance is stripped of his titles Ullrich would have 4 wins! And I think Bjarne Riis has been stripped of his? Thats 5 for Ullrich. Ullrich also finished 2nd to Pantani… so 6! 😆

Other people who have finished 2nd to Lance are Beloki, Kloden & Zulle.

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfindex.html
- September 20, 2012 at 2:51 pm
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mixalive
Member

Thats just crazy. So here is my number. So call me maby..
- September 20, 2012 at 3:19 pm
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neo_pop_71
Member

@ctk wrote:

I’ve just been looking at the Tour podium finishers.

If Lance is stripped of his titles Ullrich would have 4 wins! And I think Bjarne Riis has been stripped of his? Thats 5 for Ullrich. Ullrich also finished 2nd to Pantani… so 6! 😆

Other people who have finished 2nd to Lance are Beloki, Kloden & Zulle.

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfindex.html

Ullrich would get none as he is an admitted doper who has already been stripped of his wins. I might be wrong but I believe each person you named is also been caught doping. That’s the problem with stripping Lance, anyone who was good enough to podium was doping… the winner would be the 5th or 6th place finisher in some Tours! Madness!!!
- September 20, 2012 at 8:19 pm
- Quote
ctk
Member

I did wonder about Ullrich.

Its been going on since it started it used to be Champagne & cocaine (ah those were the days!) ANd of course Tommy Simpson died on Alpe D’Huez with all sorts in his system.
- September 21, 2012 at 4:07 pm
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willywill
Guest

I saw an article in a cycling mag that showed it would be necessary to go back 8-10 places before a rider without known doping connections was reached, notice that they used the word “known”….

I just finished reading “The Secret Race” by Tyler Hamiliton and Daniel Coyle. After digesting all the material in addition to what I have gathered on internet news sites my opinion has shifted somewhat. There is no question Lance doped. There is no question the whole peloton was doping. There is little evidence that as doping became more heavily monitored and controlled the practice of doping became sketchier, more dangerous, and much more underground.

My opinion has changed on a point that Mark made about Lance’s “win at all costs” mentality. He really was going to win at all costs, and too bad for you if you got in his way. Hamilton claims Lance narked on him to the UCI when he outperformed him on ONE STAGE…its not like he took a title from him or even the yellow jersey. Lance was a dangerously narrcasistic megalomaniac by all accounts and when push came to shove for those closest to testify in court…Lance then throws in the towel and proffers an excuse to effect of “woe is me” and I am the target of a witch hunt, etc. Which he was, and apparently for good reason. I get the impression these allegations had much more to do about greed and power then they did about drug use and unfair victories. Lance had immense amounts of power in the world of cycling and the more power he got the more he leveraged it in his favor, at the expense of many, many people.

Therein is my problem with Lance and this whole debacle. I now equate him to the Wall St. Titan (or Rick Petino) who takes their power and uses it to stack the deck in their favor. More so though I despise that they take that same power and use it to target specific individuals and limit their achievements. That is what I gather Lance was so notorious for doing which is why when it came time for those who knew him best to testify under oath he backed out. You can’t screw people to get ahead and then expect them to have your back and bail you out…(or maybe you can GM, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac)

Check out the book, I dont take it as gospel by any means but it does put a perspective on the issue that we don’t hear in the media.
- September 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm
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willywill
Guest

I think this is “proof in the EPO pudding”

Ascent times of Alpe d’Huez, the penultimate climb in Le Tour:

1. 1997 Marco Pantani (admitted user and victim of suicide) 37′ 35″
2. 2004 Lance Armstrong 37′ 36″
3. 1994 Marco Pantani 38′ 00″
4. 2001 Lance Armstrong 38′ 01″
5. 1995 Marco Pantani 38′ 04
6. 1997 Jan Ullrich (admitted user) 38′ 23″
7. 2006 Floyd Landis (admitted user) 38′ 34″

These all occured during the prime time era of EPO/blood doping use in cycling. For some perspective consider now that the peloton is cleaner than ever (consider, don’t necessarily believe it)

25. 2011 Alberto Contador 41′ 30″
29. 2011 Pierre Roland 41′ 57″
31. 2011 Ryder Hesjedal 43′ 12″

and from antiquity:

34. 1952 Fausto Coppi 45′ 22″
35. 1986 Bernard Hinnault 48′ 00″
36. 1986 Greg Lemond 48′ 00 (tie)

Not concrete evidence, but certainly quite interesting…
- September 21, 2012 at 9:58 pm
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ctk
Member

Lance’s time was done on a 15km TT stage. Pantani’s time after 200km!
- September 22, 2012 at 3:46 am
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neo_pop_71
Member

Don’t forget that Contador was found guilty of doping too and subsequently banned. He had egg on his face for talking mess about Lance doping and then he got caught himself… sucker!!!

I still think that doped up or not, Marco Pantani was the greatest climber (possibly debatable) but without a doubt he was the greatest descender ever!!!

Viva il Piratta ! ! !

http://youtu.be/YUD9h2wIZ-A

You know you’re watching someone special descending when the BMW moto can’t keep on him!!! Please excuse the the quality and the cheese music but enjoy his brilliance as he yards out on the cameraman!